It’s Time To Start Thinking About Giving Tuesday

It’s Time To Start Thinking About Giving Tuesday

BAD TIMING

I don’t know about where you live, but I have been seeing pumpkin spice infiltrate the beginning of September where it has no place of belonging.

It seems like retailers everywhere are injecting pumpkin spice into anything they can.

People have jumped the gun. This isn’t good. There is a time and season for everything. Pumpkin spice should be reserved for October.

GOOD TIMING

There ARE things you should be thinking about NOW regarding events that happen later in Fall.  Like on November 28, 2017.

It’s called #GivingTuesday.

#givingtuesday 2017 is coming

 

There’s so much potential with Giving Tuesday, which is the first MONDAY AFTER Black Friday.  This year, it falls on November 28.

If you’ve never thought about involving your church in a #GivingTuesday campaign, think again.  Just take a look at some of the giving-related stats for GivingTuesday in the past and you’ll soon be convinced you need to consider it this year.

We’ll be talking about #GivingTuesday here on the blog. Let us know if you’ve started planning for it.

Type YES in the comments if you have. Type NO if you haven’t thought about it at all yet.

Generosity Labs Podcast with Dean Sweetman of Tithe.ly

Generosity Labs Podcast with Dean Sweetman of Tithe.ly

Recently, we sat down with Dean Sweetman of Tithe.ly to discuss the state of giving. In our discussion, we went how churches can find and use best practices when it comes to cultivating generosity.

Here are a few highlights:

[3:31] In ministry, we live on a budget and the budget has its forecast of regular revenue that comes in and whether it be weather-related cancellation or holidays or people just not showing up at the church on a weekly basis anymore on our culture.

[4:09] A lot of pastors don’t think business-mindset when it comes to church in giving. I think the shift that has to come to the body of Christ coming to mind is “I’m gonna run it as a business, I’m gonna use best business practices and to do that, I’ve had to have some kind of a way of projecting my income.”

[4:57] When you put on anywhere, anytime giving solutions in people’s hand it changes the whole dynamic.

[5:38] More than 50 % of the contribution that come in by a mobile are over 250 dollars. So, people, they are not scared to give with their phones. They’re actually okay to give big money. 18% of our contributions, a thousand dollars plus, we get a contribution of 50,000 dollars via text message so it’s a no-brainer.

[6:23] Everybody is pretty much there on trusting the mobile device being a point of sale and it’s just a matter of the church, instead of being behind that curve, staying in front of that curve.

[7:13] Digital giving is definitely three times the size the amount of the contribution. I think that’s the couple of things I think it’s the convenience it’s the easiness of people giving, but you’re also hitting the demographic that’s pretty affluent and surely doesn’t having problems that making contributions today.

[9:13] We found the people who are not wanting to give is that the church has made people give number one on a Sunday. And, they have to give a checkbook or cash. Well, millennials, 35 or under don’t know what a check account is, don’t know what a checkbook is. My kids don’t and you know, they don’t carry cash. Everything is debit card or credit card. So, it’s giving people the solution to be how to do it and then, use it by and in their vacation, listening to a church’s podcast, get a message, they looked in the calendar in the app whatever and then next kind of normal thing to do is to make their contribution.

[10:16] Once we tied in with the data, we found that across all these and we’re talking, tens of millions of dollars, ⅓  is on a Sunday, ⅔ is on Monday through Saturday

[12:35] Looking at the months of the year, the summer slump which is classic, like schools are getting out everyone is excited, but the pastor is not excited because he knows during the summer, his income gonna go down up to 30%. So, what happens is when you put again a mobile giving solution in the hands of the members, guess what? They’re going to use it and so what we see is the out numbers actually stay firm and our July-August is actually up and so, people when they have the ability to give with their phone, they are going to give even when they’re out of town and on vacation.

[15:40] Other than the solution, providing tools, the other component probably the most key is education.

[16:37] The whole concept of Christianity is built around generosity, right? We’re taught in the New Testament to be generous with everything.

[16:51] So, whether you have a theological issue with tithe, let’s just put that aside for a second and decide that Jesus has taught us to be generous people. And I think that message can be preached, you know, if not on a weekly basis, certainly on a monthly basis, somewhere around the giving moment, you’re instructing your members about generosity and using the Bible to teach on God’s perspective on generosity.

[19:16] There’s the idea of getting people in the mindset of giving consistently. And if you can get people in that mindset to give consistent our numbers show that 85% of the people who give regularly, providing half the budget and 15% who give regularly provide the other half.

[21:47] If you search and dig and pray and ask the Holy Spirit to lead you into the Scriptures on what they say about money, you will be many many hours and days and getting great revelations of what the Bible says about finance. So, it’s willingness of the minister to get the revelation first.

To reach Dean, you can find him on email: dean@tithe.ly

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Generosity Labs Podcast with Joseph Sangl on Preaching about Money

Generosity Labs Podcast with Joseph Sangl on Preaching about Money

In today’s episode of the Generosity Labs podcast, we interview Joseph Sangl who is on a quest to help pastors get over their fear about talking about money. He is the founder of I Was Broke Now I’m Not.

Key points in the discussion:

  • How does a pastor bring up the taboo subject of money with his preaching?
  • What are some take-aways to add into a pastor’s sermon about giving and generosity?
  • How powerful and important is an offering prep?
  • 4 Resources About Financial Management

You can listen, subscribe or watch my interview with Joseph below.

Reach out to Joseph Sangl on iwasbrokenowimnot.com

CHECK OUT WWW.GENEROSITYLABS.ORG for more episodes, blog articles and more resources about giving and generosity.

 


Transcription

KENNY: Good day everybody. This is Kenny Jahng coming at you again and today, in the hot seat, we’ve got a good friend Joe Sangl. Thank you so much for being with us, Joe, today.

JOE: Fired up. Thanks so much brother.

KENNY: It is great to be with you especially because the conversation that we’ve been having with a lot of churches in the past recently center around the taboo topic of money. Giving and money. And I know that you are in that space. You’re talking about that everyday, actually. So, why don’t you share with our audience a little about who you are, what you do and how you help churches in particular.

JOE: My name is Joseph Sangl. And I founded an organization called I Was Broke, Now, I Am Not. and I’d like to say people, if you’re saying now, he is broke? You’re failing grammar class and it’s not fun being broke. And I got unbroke and I did it by following God’s Word and applying His principles. And as I went through the process, I have an Engineering degree from Purdue University, got my MBA, and I was still broke. And I was wondering, “Was it that difficult?” And I realized, I was thinking too hard that it’s really the reading of God’s Word and the application of it. I started finding all the scripture about money. And I’ve found out that God’s Word is not silent on it. But, my pastor had been silent on it. Therefore, I was educated by all those great marketers from Madison Avenue and I spend it all. I have the spiritual gift to making money disappear and I got deliverance. And I am on a one-man quest to help pastors get over their fear in talking about money because all their people, they make money decisions all day long.

KENNY: So, let’s get into that because I think it’s still even today in 2017, a little bit of a taboo topic for these pastors and church leaders that we’re talking to, they’re afraid to bring it up. They feel like they’re begging for money. They feel like it’s out of place. It’s not an etiquette. In fact, I’ve had lunch with a pastor this week who said, he literally doesn’t have any data on how much money people give in his church. They put up a security wall, so that he literally doesn’t know. So, what is the first step? If people here listening today want to embrace a culture of generosity, how do they bring up money and tithing and giving if they’ve never preached on it before, right, which is very possible, they don’t do it in classes, or workshops or seminars, or even in the bible studies, what’s the first step? How do you bring it up for the first time the pulpit or from the stage?

JOE: That’s a great question and I would say, they need to start with the “Why”. Why do they want to talk about it because if it’s just to get them to give, that’s not appropriate “why”. If it’s, I want to teach them about what God’s Word says about all of money,  giving but also saving, debt, planning, investing, if I want to see them win and fund the dreams God has placed in their life and be able to fund the shared dream of the church, then, when they get to that place if that is their why, then, that’s when they need to approach the church with it. A lot of pastors, when they hear us say, “You need to preach on money.”, they immediately, something about that word replaces it with the word with ‘giving’ — preach on ‘giving’. But, that’s only, you know, 10%. If you’re giving, preaching the tithe, that’s only 10% of the resources God has placed in their hands. You need to make sure you speak to the entire pocket, the other 90%, as well. And so, I would start by talking about their goal as a leader to help people live a fully funded life, being able to do exactly what God has called them to do, regardless of its cause or income potential and then, go from that point. I am going to talk about giving, yes, that is God’s Word. We should be givers. I will talk about the rest, too because I also want to help you live the best and only life you have.

KENNY: I love that. That is such a critical insight. That, if you’re preaching on giving, you’re only talking about 10% of their daily living of what they go through, you need to talk about the holistic aspect. Now, some people have an allergic reaction to thinking that money and stewardship is a part of spiritual discipline. What’s your take on it?

JOE: I just say, how can you say you love the Lord and not be a giver? How can you say He died and paid the ultimate price that we can have liberty? And you know, I have heard one said, “How can I stare at the blood-stained cross, and say what is the minimum of I can give?” You know what I’m saying? So, Jesus said in Matthew 6:21, “Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” And if you say you love the Lord, if you say your heart is with the Lord, it will compel you to be a giver.

KENNY: In terms of preaching, you were saying that, “Hey, look, we’re not going to talk about actually giving to the church. That is not the focus or the end goal or the call to action at the end of the first time you’re talking about it.” What’s the take-away of that first talk, the first sermon someone’s going to give?

JOE: I think the take-away is to ask the question, “Are you truly honoring the Lord with everything He has placed in your hands?” And I would challenge every person within my church to spend an hour this next week reviewing their last month’s spending. Pull out their credit card statements, bank statements and say, “In an audit, when someone convicts you, which means having them found guilty of, living a generous life and being a wise manager.” I am going to start there. I love the story that Jesus shares in parable to talents in Matthew 25:14-30, where it talks about the three manager. And it says in there, each according to their ability they’re giving different amounts. If people want more to manage, increase your ability to manage it. It says, the Lord pays attention to that.

KENNY: Got you. Shifting gears a little bit. About the specific offering, one of the things that I’m a bit proponent about, and I think that people miss is that the offering part of the service is one of the most strategic moments of your ability to influence the daily living of your congregants. How powerful can that be? Have you seen any tangible differences when people pursue that?

JOE: Absolutely. There’s a massive difference. Some people called it an offering prep. But, really, it is an opportunity to speak about money 52 times a year in a positive, productive and spiritual principle manner. And we encourage people to change it up each week, so it doesn’t blend into the woodwork. Many churches have fallen into a routine, and it’s, “Oh yeah, we need to do that.” But really, giving is one of the most tangible forms of worship that we can do. It is really us, saying, “I can give this and believe that with God’s blessing on the rest, I can live a better life.” It’s the tangible form of saying that I trust the Lord. And so, I want to encourage every leader that’s listening to this, watching this is that you should think through and spend as much time planning the offering moment as you do in planning the message. It’s that important.

KENNY: And one of the biggest hesitations is that if you are constantly putting up calls-to-action about giving and money that the reaction is being negative, you’re going to be seen as someone who’s greedy and self-serving. How do you avoid that perception on the receiving end?

JOE: So, again, if the leader feels like that is what they’re doing, then, they are probably doing that they need to re-evaluate their why. But on the other side, the way you speak about giving, it needs to be about the mission and the vision and how giving has helped accomplished it. And being into the attitude of gratitude to tell people, “I’m so grateful to you’ve chosen to be part of the vision here at Cornerstone Church, at Crosspoint Church. Let me tell you how your giving a dollar makes a difference in our community and connecting the dots that these dollars really have equal life change.” And when you do that, it actually encourages people. It helps them understand that there’s a return of investment, an ROI here. And they know for a fact, this is the greatest place that I can give my dollar.

KENNY: Tell us a little bit more on your ministry in particular, how you actually help churches accomplish that tactically and logistically. What other resources that you are able to derive?

JOE: Well, I feel like there are four spokes of the wheel that fund churches. And we’re serving all 4 of them. One is personal stewardship. With I Was Broke, Now I Am Not, we have personal finance group studies, think of Dave Ramsey’s Type studies. I go on sites, teach stewardship messages, teach 2 hour classes. And then, have DVD based studies resources. The next one is InJoy Stewardship Solutions. That’s capital campaigns. That’s the sacrificial pocket. You know, that time of sacrifice come and go. And that helps churches raise big time money when they’re raising half of the year’s the budget or more. That’s when we can help. And then, the third pocket is the regular giving pocket. And I started that with somebody you and I both know, Michael Lukaszewski, an organization called Fully-Funded. It’s an online coaching membership where churches have gathered together, learning how to implement regular giving systems within their church. The fourth pocket is Estate Planning and that’s talking to people about their assets and what they’re going to do with them when they leave. And how they can still have kingdom impact even beyond their after life. And so we help in those all four categories and the greatest place to start really is a conversation with I Was Broke. Now, I Am Not or with InJoy Stewardship Solutions or Fully-Funded whichever category a pastor needs. We love to help them with that.

KENNY: Most of the churches in this country now, in the State of the Union is that over 50% of the churches are a hundred or less in attendees.

JOE: That’s right.

KENNY: And then, you’re probably talking solo pastor ministries, right? Is the pastor himself/herself the one that really should be the spokesperson, the steward, the facilitator of this conversations or is it a treasurer, a finance person, volunteers, an elder or somebody else that should be the point person for these types of conversation?

JOE: That’s a great question. And the right answer is it depends. It depends upon the past culture of the church and how people respond to that culture. So, if the pastor feels confident talking about money and can answer those questions, then, it should be the pastor, you know, their kind of CEO of your church. They’re the public face of the ministry. They are the chief vision-caster in most cases. So, it’s most compelling when it’s from the leader. However, many pastors in smaller churches have a very strong business leader, who’s a leader of their board, who can speak very eloquently on this topic. It can be a very wise shepherd, helping people honor the Lord with their resources. So, if that’s the case, then, it’s okay if that person as well.

KENNY: I am really glad that you’re both advocating depending on the context. This past week I had lunch with a pastor who shared with me that he literally does not know any of the finances of his church. Is that wise? Is that something that you think that needs to be cordoned off, you know, the pastor, he’s deep in the Word, preaching in his ministry and the rest of the flock are concerned about the business of the church, the expansion of the church, etc. what’s your opinion on that?

JOE: I would argue strongly, the pastor should know. Proverbs 27:23 says, “A Shepherd knows the status of his flocks.” The pastors and shepherds and giving is an absolute outward sign of a person’s heart condition. I know in some cases that if the pastor knows they would be fired. So, if that’s the case, I would want to get the pastor fired. I would say, someone must know. And I would start by saying, “Anybody who’s on staff or in a key volunteer leadership position, somebody needs to know that they’re giving generously.” Plus, everything rises and falls on leadership. John Maxwell, right? And if the leader and the leaders of the church are not leading the way in this thing called generosity, you can not expect for that mission, that vision to be fully funded.

KENNY: Wow, that’s pretty powerful. I think it’s a good guidance, too. And I think it also always comes down to the confidence of the pastor. Many pastors are not, right? Seminary didn’t change us like an MBA, like you and I have. It’s a part of the profile that a pastor needs to understand. Where do they go for resources to become up to speed on the financial aspect of the business?

JOE: I would say every single pastor can sign up for our online class for free. And so, I Was Broke, Now I Am Not has a year-long course with coaching, mentoring and lessons and I would give it to any pastor, senior pastor, that contacts us. We would give it to them for free. And I’ll answer their questions. My passion. You know, there are too many broke pastors. And most pastors, especially those of the 200 or less, 100 or less, they don’t go in the ministry to make millions of dollars. They do it because of passion and calling. Most of them don’t have any vacation and are very tired. And my goal is to be able to help them become liberated in their finances so that they can solely focus on God’s calling. And finances, generally, is the number one barrier from that church growing to the 500 mark.

KENNY: I love it. And that’s what I love about your ministry. Your heart really comes through authentically. That’s where your passion is. You really want to help that pastor, the leader get a hold in their own finances, so that they can actually focus on all the other things in ministry as well.

JOE: Absolutely.

KENNY: Thank you so much for stopping by. If someone wants to get in touch with you personally, what’s the best way to do that? Social media, email, website? Give us your digits here.

JOE: Go to iwasbrokenowimnot.com Just Google it. I Was Broke Now I Am Not. And click Contact Joe. That will go right through me and my team and we’ll be in touch very soon. We’d love to help any leader to be able to fund vision. It’s our passion.

KENNY: Thanks so much Joseph, really to stop by and hope some time to revisit with us later to go deeper in some other topics. But, I love what you’re doing and everything that you do for the kingdom.

JOE: Thanks for the opportunity. So blessed. Thanks Kenny.

 

 


The Generosity Labs Podcast is part of a new resource hub for pastors, providing free resources and information about digital giving. You can find more free resources  here.
A full transcription is below

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5 Real World Church Giving Experiments

5 Real World Church Giving Experiments

When you think of a lab, what comes to mind?

White coats? Beakers? A little smoke and occasional explosion! Needles, knives, tweezers, and other tools?  

The dictionary tells us that a lab is “a place providing opportunity for experimentation, observation, or practice in a field of study. An experiment is “a test for the purpose of discovering something unknown”.

So let’s use Generosity Labs to talk about a few real world giving experiments we’ve been up to over at Tithe.ly. Sound good?!

Lab coats. Check.

Protective eye wear. Check.

Experiment #1: Will Mobile Giving Grow Overall Giving?

It’s not uncommon for us to hear from churches that they have “online giving”, but there is a very big difference between “online giving” and “mobile giving”.

You see, most of the time “online giving” requires people to go to their laptop which is sitting at home. Meaning, instead of giving in the moment of the offering at church, the person has to remember to crack open their computer and get online when they get home. The chances of that happening is fairly slim because people fellowship after church, go to lunch, attend their kids sporting activities, spend time with family and countless other things. Then, the go home. Tired 🙂 Next Sunday rolls around and they are listening to the offering thinking “shoot, I was going to give online after the last service!”.

Mobile giving, on the other hand, allows people to take part in the worship and give right in the offering moment or while the plate is being passe.

Michael Morris, Sr. Pastor at Cornerstone Community Church in the rural mountains of Virginia launched Tithe.ly about six months ago. Prior to Tithe.ly his church only had online giving tools avail for members to give.

He rolled out true mobile giving through Tithe.ly and the early results are impressive. Here’s what Pastor Morris has to say …

“After launching Tithe.ly, we quickly saw our giving trends change. We now have 34% of all giving occur from mobile, which is a big increase from our previous solution. Another positive benefit is that 41% of our online giving is recurring giving, meaning that our giving is now more consistent week after week.

After the first quarter, the church is ahead of budget by 2 entire weeks! This is the first time the church has ever been ahead of budget during the first quarter. Based on the current average for 2017, we should exceed our annual budget by $50,000.

Conclusion: When put in the hands of members, mobile giving does, in fact, increase giving.

Experiment #2: Does the Summer Giving Slump Have to Happen?

The summer giving slump is a real thing in the church world.

What is it, you ask?

For many years there has been a direct correlation between attendance and giving. If people miss church, they don’t give. It’s seen most dramatically in the summer months. People go on vacation, have family in town, stay out and wake up late, etc. So, from May through August, many churches in the U.S. see giving “slump” (aka decline) due to attendance dropping.

It’s been reported that the average decline is between 20 – 30%!

Based on the historical trend, many churches simply plan for this in their annual budgeting process. The scale back programs, activities, and other costs in order to keep cost during the summer inline with income.

But it doesn’t have to be this way. Check out the chart based on Tithe.ly giving research below.

The line represents the normal giving pattern for many churches in the U.S. That’s the summer slump!

The bars in green represent what churches using Tithe.ly see during the summer months. You don’t even have to look closely to see that there is NO SUMMER SLUMP for churches using Tithe.ly. Giving actually steadily grows through the summer.

Conclusion: When you give people mobile, text, and online giving tools so they can give whether they are in church or away, giving doesn’t suffer during the summer months so you don’t have to plan for the “summer slump”.

Experiment #3: WIll People Give Big Gifts Online?

It’s not uncommon to hear church leadership share opinions about online giving being for small gifts. Somehow, church leaders have been convinced that people won’t give big donations through a mobile giving app or online giving solution.

But, is that true?

The data suggest this is, in fact, a myth!

54% of gifts given through the Tithe.ly digital giving platform are over $250 with 18% being over $1,000! I wouldn’t put those in the “small gift” category, would you?

Conclusion: Although popular opinion suggest online giving is for smaller gifts, the data shows that this isn’t true. People are comfortable giving big!

Experiment #4: Do People Prefer Using their Bank Account Over Credit/Debit Card for Giving?

Let’s start with a disclaimer: We are NOT in favor of anyone using debt to give or otherwise going into debt. That goes completely against the biblical call to be good stewards of the resources that God has entrusted to our care. We understand that this heart is the heart behind churches wanting to not allowing giving by way of a credit card.

The thing is, people, your members, prefer giving through a credit or debit card compared to using their bank account directly.

We don’t have any hard data to support why this is the case, but we do have two anecdotal bit of evidence based on talking to a lot of people about it:

  1. People do not want to attach their bank account to anything.
  2. People like getting the points associated with using their credit card.

Conclusion: Card based giving is the preferred method for most individuals.

Experiment #5: Will People “Cover the Fees”?

Cover the fees™ is a handly little feature in Tithe.ly that allows the giver to help offset fees paid by the church to use Tithe.ly. Essentially, the giver can turn on Cover the fees™ and it will increase their donation amount slightly so that the church gets the full gift amount.

It’s a feature that, to be completely honest, we didn’t know would work or not, but we had a hunch and wanted to experiment a bit.

Much to our surprise, Cover the fees™ not only worked, it gets used in over 25% of all gifts made across the Tithe.ly platform.

DRf

Your turn …

You can take off your protective eyewear now 🙂

The experiments are done.

There you have it. Five real world generosity experiments that we’ve been running for some time, along with the data to back up the results.  We’d love to hear from you in the comments below! What giving experiments have you run? Do any of the above stand out or do you find yourself questioning the data? Let us know.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

Dean Sweetman tithelyDean Sweetman
For over 30 years, Dean has been involved in ministry and building businesses that support the work of the Church. He’s help plant over 50 churches and raised millions of dollars to spread the Gospel, equip leaders, and change lives. Now Dean spends his time focused on using technology to advance the Kingdom. When he’s not helping churches grow their giving with Tithe.ly he’s spending time with his family and new grandson!

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Generosity Labs Podcast with Cindy Petroff of Faith Family Church

Generosity Labs Podcast with Cindy Petroff of Faith Family Church

In this episode of the Generosity Labs Podcast, we sit down with Cindy Petroff, the Director of Finance at Faith Family Church. Cindy has been serving at Faith Family for more than 18 years and has seen the landscape of giving change substantially

In this episode, Cindy talks about

  • What lead them to digital giving
  • The biggest challenge of digital giving
  • Why digital giving is 7x more efficient

In this episode, Cindy recommends

Reach out to Cindy on email at info@myfaithfamily.com.

You can listen, subscribe or watch my interview with Cindy Petroff below.

The Generosity Labs Podcast is part of a new resource hub for pastors, providing free resources and information about digital giving. You can find more free resources  here.
A full transcription is below

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Transcription

KENNY: Greetings podcast land. My name is Kenny Jahng and this is the Generosity Labs podcast. Generosity and giving as it relates to the church is one of the biggest and most important conversation we can have among faith communities. And, that’s why we’re here today with Cindy Petroff. So glad to have you on the show today, Cindy.

CINDY: Thank you for having me Kenny.

KENNY: You worked in many fields of accounting, I believe, including government and public manufacturing and now non-profit. I think you’re currently on staff there at Faith Family Church, leading the accounting department. I think you’ve been doing that for 15-18 years, now?

CINDY: Little over 18 years, yes.

KENNY: I’m sure you’ve seen the evolution and the growth and just different time periods of how the church has handled money and giving and generosity.

CINDY: Yes. From 18 years ago to what it is now today is literally different.

KENNY: Completely different.

KENNY: First, let’s just hear a little bit more about you, Cindy and the church.Tell us a little bit more about you and what your role really means for the church. Tell us also, what is your church community like? How many people gather on a Sunday? Who and what would we see if we came to visit in a service, sat in and take a look around on a Sunday?

CINDY: Faith Family Church is a rather large church. We’ve got, on weekends, anywhere between 3000 to 4000 people that regularly attends. We actually have a Saturday night service and a Sunday morning service. Because we do find a lot of people who prefer to come on a Saturday Night compared to Sunday morning. We got a real mixed crowd of people who attend here — from young people who have a great youth program to people who have been here since the church began. Myself, am the Director of Finance here. I have been in that position, different titles, but basically the same position for 18 years. So, I like to try new technologies and I like to sometimes, there are some hesitation with that. But, you know, I’ve really watched not only the church grow but also things evolved with time.

KENNY: One of the things I love hearing about your church in Ohio is that you actually brought onboard digital giving, introduced it to the church as a response to some of the younger generation there. Tell us a little bit more about. How did that start?

CINDY: Well, it started probably around 8 years ago when we first went to online giving. We have some of the younger people had said, “Why don’t we go to online giving?”. And, we really thought about it for a while because with me, I’m not a younger person. And I was like, “Oh, it’s credit cards; it’s debit cards.” We just had that hesitation about doing that. But once we went to the online giving, they create an app that people can use the app on their phones or log in to our website and give. And, I mean, a lot of people use it. It was popular, but it wasn’t like mind-blowingly popular. People either liked it or didn’t like it. And, 8 years ago, there was still a lot of hesitation from a lot of people to use online giving.

KENNY: Definitely. We’ve come a long way, right? If you look at even e-commerce as a whole, people don’t think about giving a credit card even on your mobile phone today for a purchase, buying stuff on the run is the norm for many Americans today. Tell us a little about your digital giving options today. So, you got online giving on your website. You said, you got a mobile app that you can give through a  mobile app. Do you offer text-to-give as well?

CINDY: Yes. We do now offer text-to-give. We initiated that I would say, 2 and a half years ago. That one really came from our youth, in our really young college age kids. They had originally come to our staff and said, “We really like to be able to give by text.”

KENNY: Interesting.

CINDY: “Everyone’s is using their phones now and we really like you to think about doing that.” Having been doing the online giving, it wasn’t as tough to make that transition. But, I would say that text-to-give has really been a popular choice.

KENNY: Have you seen that it’s only limited usage to the younger? And by younger, are you saying, under 20, under 30, under 40? What is the population are you thinking as the bulk of people who use text-to-give?

CINDY: I would say initially it was the younger 30 and under crowd that really jumped on board with it, right away.

KENNY: What about today?

CINDY: Today, we have all age ranges using it. We have some people that are in their 60s that were using online giving but they had to do their username and their password, and it was more difficult. So, with text-to-give, they literally just send a text with their giving, and they’re like, they really like it because it’s easy.

KENNY: Nice. What are you guys using for text-to-give?

CINDY: For online giving, we are using our database software which is Shelby Arena and, that’s our people database. And when people login to the online giving, they’re literally logging into that database and, they can see their giving records from there. For text-to-give, we’re using Kindrid, which is of course separate from that. But, it’s a great option and, it actually merges really great into Shelby Arena.

KENNY: Got you. Do you have it fully integrated or you don’t need to do extra manual data entry?

CINDY: There’s no data entry. But, what we do is we go to Kindrid and we export the files everyday and then, we just import them into Shelby Arena.

KENNY: Great. In that way, you have one place in all your people profile and histories contain.

CINDY: Yes. that’s true,

KENNY: Got you. What was one of the biggest challenges in adopting text-to-give in your opinion?

CINDY: One of the biggest challenges was getting people to understand how to text-to-give especially if they wanted it to be their tithe, if they wanted it to be the building, if they wanted it to go to one of our other children or whatever. That’s probably the thing that we are continually just reminding people of how that works because if you’re new to it, it can be somewhat confusing.

KENNY: Right. One of the hesitations that I’ve heard from many people who are exploring text giving solutions is that they’re scared that people’s giving rates will drop off. People are not comfortable writing a check versus text in amounts. They rather write the larger amounts via check and that they would not give that much via texting. Have you noticed any loss in terms of the average gift size or are you only receiving small dollar amounts via text?

CINDY: I would say that I’ve not seen anything drop off but someone who would normally give text-to-give, if they did have a particular large gift that they wanted to give, they might write a check for that. And we have many people who do use multiple avenues to give.

KENNY: Got you. Depending on their own preferences, like the flexibility.

CINDY: Yes. They may give weekly with online giving having set up as something that’s automatic. They don’t have to go in and do anything. It’s just every week or every month or whatever give this amount, but they want to give in to a special offering then, they may give text-to-give.

KENNY: One of the biggest obstacles that we have when talk to church teams is that the back office, the finance team, it’s not like you’re out there doing 2 hour lunches everyday, and just sun bathing, right? You got a full plate in terms of what you need to do. So, the hesitation of bringing in another service into the mix in your workflow, tends to be some resistance in some church teams. Just realistically, have you had to add any part time or full time to integrate the Kindrid solution, the text-to-give to increase that giving option. What type of extra resources have you needed in order to do that?

CINDY: Actually, it’s quite the opposite. Because we have a larger congregation, everyone was giving by check, we have so much more data entry that we have to do. So, by them doing online, which is just integrated in there and with the Kindrid, all we do is in one batch, import that into our system and post it. We save time — more people who use that actually saves us time.

KENNY: Interesting. So, you’ve got a church scenario wherein you have a huge proportion is check manually based entry. A text-to-give solution might actually be a good time saver. Is that what you’re saying?

CINDY: Absolutely. We went through and looked to see if someone’s giving by check. How many times does the accounting department have to touch that check or that envelope? And it was literally like seven times whereas in the text-to-give you’re importing it, posting it and you’re done.

KENNY: Got you. And you’re not doing it individually. It’s done in a batch. Everyone. It’s one file. A day that you export and import.

CINDY: Yes, that’s correct.

KENNY: Not in a manual and individual basis.

CINDY: Correct. The only thing you would have to do manually is when someone new gives that isn’t in your database. Other than that it’s literally a five minute process.

KENNY: Have you seen any optic in new givers embracing the text-to-give mostly or is it mostly just old time givers?

CINDY: I would say that as new people come in to the church that’s the way their giving is by text-to-give. Younger people, many of them don’t even have checking accounts or use checks. For them, they’re like, “Oh, I can do that. I can give” It’s so easy just to do it. First initial text-to-give and you’re setup. It’s so much easier than ‘Oh, I didn’t bring my checkbook’, ‘I don’t have any cash on me’. It’s a very great advantage.

KENNY: If you have a chance to talk to the people who are listening today who are considering making that leap into digital giving, what’s the one piece of advice that you would give them as they go into this whole decision process?

CINDY: I would say for and I’ve said this to people in the past for a text-to-give option, make sure that it integrates well with the software you’re currently using. Make sure that it’s something that you can import in and you’re not creating another data entry issue for your staff.

KENNY: Great piece of advice. It’s important to make sure everything works together, right?

CINDY: Yes.

KENNY: Thank you so much for spending a little bit of your time with us and sharing your experiences with digital giving. We’re going to end the interview with a lightning round of questions. Are you ready Cindy?

CINDY: Sure.

KENNY: So, the first one is, can you share one thing for the top of everyone’s list. Whether it’s a list of books, great books that they should be reading, website that they should be visiting, conferences that they should be taking note of or some other type of resource related to church and the vocation or ministry.

CINDY: I would say I recently read a book called The Leadership Triangle. And, that was really great. It’s by Ford Kevin and Ken Tucker. It was very helpful for me and really understanding our roles as leaders and how to involve everyone in some of your decision making.

KENNY: Nice. that’s a good one. So, what’s one thing that you’re looking forward to 2017 regarding the church?

CINDY: We are going to be opening a campus in 2017. In 2016, we opened some prison campuses and we’re doing those every week in multiple prisons. It’s an awesome program and we’re really looking forward to opening a campus somewhere that we’ll able to reach to our people.

KENNY: Wow. that’s exciting. That period of growth is stored whenever you’re adding another campus. That’s a great time to be a part of the church. Third question is, where are you getting your inspiration and education about donor development these days?

CINDY: I would say my inspiration is coming from our younger staff members. I’m a little older. I won’t say how much older. But, they have the pulse of the younger people. Sometimes, they bring ideas to me that I’ve never not necessarily even heard of and it gives me the information I need for the research.

KENNY: Just a whole story about your church. I love that repeatedly there’s so many examples of being open and listening to the community and being responsive to that. I think that posture is something that everyone really needs to take note of. I think it’s an awesome posture to have. You’ve shared so many good things today. If someone listening today wanted to get in touch with you, what’s the best way that they can do that today?

CINDY: They can email me at info@myfaithfamily.com.

KENNY: Awesome. And that’s your website also, myfaithfamily.com?

CINDY: That’s correct.

KENNY: And that church is in Ohio. Thank you so much Cindy for being in the show today.

CINDY: Thank you Kenny.

Kenny: Thank you for our audience for listening to our conversation on digital giving and the church. If this episode has been useful to you, do me a favor and like and review this podcast episode today. It really helps us reach more church leaders across the country on such an important issue with the future of the church. Well, that’s a wrap. I’m Kenny Jahng for Generosity Labs. ‘Til next time. Check out our website at www.generositylabs.org. Remember learning to give with your heart is when the real giving starts.

Generosity Labs Podcast with Nadine Raphael of Christian Life Center

Generosity Labs Podcast with Nadine Raphael of Christian Life Center

In our latest episode of the Generosity Labs Podcast, we sit down with Nadine Raphael. Nadine has been with the Christian Life Center in Florida for 16 years and is the current Chief Operating Officer. She’s really got a handle on finances, generosity, administration and how the three work together.

In this episode, Nadine talks about

  • What demographic they’re getting ready for
  • CLC’S 5 different ways to give
  • How much growth they experienced through digital giving
  • How they follow up with donors
  • How to earmark donations

In this episode, Nadine mentions

  • Kindrid
  • Christian Life Center
  • Corporate Business Review

Reach out to Nadine on email nadine@clcftl.org

You can listen, subscribe or watch my interview with Nadine Raphael below.

The Generosity Labs Podcast is part of a new resource hub for pastors, providing free resources and information about digital giving. You can find more free resources  here.
A full transcription is below

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Transcription

Kenny: Hi to all our church leaders tuning in today. My name is Kenny Jahng, and Generosity and Giving as it relates to the church is one of the biggest and most important conversations we can have across faith communities. And, that’s why today we have Nadine Raphael. So glad to have you in the show today, Nadine!

Nadine: Thank you so much. Glad to be here.

Kenny: So, Nadine, you’ve been with the Christian Life Center in Florida for the last 16 years, right?

Nadine: That is correct. Yes.

Kenny: I believe that you served a variety of roles: business administrator, community life pastor and now, most recently taken a role of chief operating officer.

Nadine: It’s correct. Yes.

Kenny: So, let’s just get right into it. Let’s hear a little bit more about you and your church. Tell us a little bit about what your role really means on a daily basis and what is your church community look like. If we were to come visit on a Sunday and sit down on a seat and look around, what it would look like? What would we feel like in your community?

Nadine: Christian Life Center has been around for over 40 years. Recently, we went to a transition as our previous senior pastor took the opportunity to raise up the next generation of leaders and then, move out into more international missions. Our current senior pastor, Pastor Tom Manning has been for this for 5 years. Prior to him getting there was pretty much a traditional older crowd that we knew. It was a strong crowd. It has been around for a long time, but we knew that we needed to connect more with younger families, young adults and things of that nature. And so, over the past 5 years, we have more of into just a melting pot from the youngest of youngs. We have a strong children’s ministry. Our young adults is a vibrant community of one thousand. And then, we have from young adults to obviously senior age. So we are populated for about forty-five thousand. Now, we are making a strong presence in the community just doing a lot of outreach events and mission events. We’re very vibrant. We are known for our worship style. It’s very engaging when people comes to our church. That is the first they said and talk about. So I’ve been here just transitioning with all of that being said to phenomenal senior pastor. And now, my role on a day-to-day basis is to oversee the entire operations of the church. We have four campuses. So, overseeing the day-to-day operations and being the lighthouse obviously in our community as well.

Kenny: It’s pretty cool. I think in that area is just fabulous. It’s a great place to be in.

Nadine: Oh, it is.

Kenny: Since you’ve been there for such a long time, what is the demographic span? I believe from my understanding, specially in that area, you have a good mix. It’s not one of those communities where it’s just older population or just young dynamic population. Does your church really have a cross section of decades?

Nadine: Yes. Not only decades but we also have 32 nationalities represented in our congregation. But, we spend, generally, like I said, we have strong young adults presence. And then our young families, 30’s and 40’s age group is also very strong in our community and then obviously our senior age. One of the things that I do want to point out is that we’re, — as I said, also an initiative for us — we are seen on a larger demographic of single parenting. So, we’ve used our church as a hub to help single parents, reach out to single parents, and counsel single parents on how to help parent their children all by themselves. That is a new demographic that we’re also seen growing not just in our context, but also across the United States.

Kenny: That’s really cool that your church is doing that earlier you’re aware of the changing dynamic of the community. Let’s talk about giving and generosity in your church. You’ve got a great compelling story. Tell us a little bit about that journey of transitioning donors online. First of all, what are all the different types of ways that people can give online? Can they give out paper, check and cash? Right?

Nadine: Correct.

Kenny: And do you have an offering basket that is passed or how that is working on given Sunday?

Nadine: We have an offering plate that gets passed throughout our services obviously. And then, we do have online giving; we have text giving; we have mailing giving; we have ACH giving. We have about 5 different ways that people can give. With the majority still, we did come from a traditional background, so, we did still have those that give by cash and checks. So we when we’re trying to make this transition, I’ll tell you honestly, our board members were concerned, those that are on our staff, they were concerned because they didn’t know. ‘Is this Biblical?’. How people were gonna response to this? You know the text said, “Bring your tithes into the storehouse.” How people are going to respond to this? And I was one of those sceptics, I’ve been around 16 years here at Christian Life Center. I was one of those sceptics who wonder, “Is it going to affect anyone that we’re trying now some electronic giving?” So, we decided, we needed to provide different ways probably different demographics from younger to older that not everyone carries around checks like they used to, not everyone carries around cash for safety. More and more people are using the plastic cards. So, we decided we needed to appeal to all ages and once we did, to be honest with you, what we saw was a large number of our congregation raised it. And not only that, we developed a new pool of giving of our first time givers watching online and started to give. And so, we saw a  bump of 20%  which was huge for us and then we realize, this was what we understood is that people wanted to give. It didn’t matter how they give. Giving is a thing of the heart and not a method. It wasn’t so much caught up in a method as it was God inspired me to give, I want to give back what he has given me and I want to make a difference. And so, they would just open to the fact that this is a convenient way for me to here and it’s also safe way.

Kenny: I love that. So there’s so many things to unpack here that’s so good. Let’s talk about those new givers. You’re saying that there are people that started to give for first time to your ministry electronically not in cash or check, the first transaction was electronic digitally.

Nadine: Yes.

Kenny: And, the count is 20% new audiences that you guys have reached.

Nadine: Yes, that’s right.

Kenny: What do you do there for the follow up? Are you finding repeat givers or it’s just one done?

Nadine: No. You have your few one and done. They watch our services online. They want to give that way. But, for the 99%, they are repeat givers. What we found was that even what we thought that it was going to be the younger/young adult generation, but, we also found that it was just young families. Even in our senior community, it was those as well. And I think what people started to find, to be honest with you, Kenny, is just the convenience of it all. It was just a click of a button. They added us to their mobile devices called CLC giving. They name it something like that. So each time we presented a project or when it’s time to give tithes and offerings, they just pick their mobile devices and click the button. And I do want to point something else out that we’ve found later on is that there were natural disasters that were coming up, emergency were coming up that the church wanted to participate in. That people weren’t in that particular weekend didn’t know that they were going into a service where there was going to be a pool or ask to give towards a natural disaster. So, they would have been prepared, but because we provided this way of thanksgiving they were able to participate in the moment. Some people would say, “Well, you know why I go home and next week, I participated in.” But, the moment is gone. The feeling, the tug of the heart is gone, so it’s good for them to be able to give in that moment.

Kenny: That’s quite awesome. So you have both directive giving and general giving. Do you have special codes? How do you know if you’re raising money for a missions trip or a disaster. How do you message that from the stage?

Nadine: Okay. What we would do is that we know that we had a giving towards Haiti or something like that. We would create a keyword called Haiti where huge of missions in our congregation would give towards local statewide and internationally. So, we would just create those keywords that represents those projects. So, when we would present the ask to the congregation , we would just tell them, “In order to give to this particular project, just put the keyword HAITI or put the keyword FLOOD.”

Kenny: A couple of things. Where does that planning start? Is it with the pastor? Is it the giving team? The finance? The actual ministry team? In terms of being able to say, “Hey, we should use a keyword and we should message.” The messaging from the stage on a Sunday is so cautious, right? What is that process internally and how long in advance is that? Does someone have to lobby for that? And how long does it take to to actually line the up keyword so that you guys can start using it?

Nadine: It’s 2 things. Basically 3 individuals, it would be the senior pastor, the business administrator, and myself. Once we know that there were project coming up, we’ll go ahead and get together and say, “What’s the best word for that?” It can be a text; it can be an email; it’s very miniscule. But, sometimes, we can have given in the moments. My senior pastors sometimes may be very spontaneous. From the pulpit, sometimes, he’ll say, “You know what I just feel that we need to give towards this particular family, or we need to give towards this particular project.” For our business administrator, from her phone, from her mobile device, and actually create the keyword while he was live on the platform and the people can give just like that towards that keyword.

Kenny: I love that. What system are you using for that to be able to make it that easy?

Nadine: We used CCB. You mean the background? We use Church Community Builder which is easy.

Kenny: Right. That’s one of the major players for the church managing systems. And then, for the text to give, what service are you using for them?

Nadine: Kindrid.

Kenny: Yes. They use a smart giving type. Let’s talk with the back operations there and some logistics. Let’s narrow it down a little bit. You have Kindrid giving. People message from the platform; people would give on a Sunday. How do you reconcile that into the CCB, your donor profile. What’s the process? Is there a data entry team? How do actually hook up the two systems together? Is that easy or hard?

Nadine: At one point, it was difficult before we started using Kindrid Text Giving. Because what would happened is people would give online through our 3rd party giving system online before we had text giving. And then we would have to match that person into the system. It will just a little of cumbersome. Through text giving, their name through the Kindrid, through their back system that they are using, it automatically matches the person in our CCB database…

Kenny: So, it’s not a manual process?

Nadine: No. Now, if the Kindrid system cannot find this person because it’s a first time giver, and our CCB database inputs them in a holding pattern to let us know, these are your first time givers. And, we can actually gain their information through Kindrid because Kindrid has forward their information and actually add them now to our database. So, we can send them a Thank You letter, send them giving statements. So, it has really helped us to stay in contact with us.

Kenny: That’s what computers supposed to do right? Technology supposed to make our life easy when you can integrate all that. That’s great. So, you don’t have multiple database that you need to look into for someone’s giving history?

Nadine: Oh no. We just have one database which is CCB. We can actually look at their giving, put out their statements, email their statements and it has every way that they given. Sometimes, the person may give cash. Sometimes that same person may give a check. And, sometimes that person will text. So, all of that is combined on their giving statement.

Kenny: And okay. So, that CCB profile has all the history in one place?

Nadine: Yes

Kenny: Great, great. And so, you said that text giving is actually something that people have embraced, large percentage of the congregation actually ends up giving by text. What percentage is that at this point?

Nadine: Well it started a little bit above 30 percent that has embraced the giving. I mean, it started out 5 to 10 percent. I think it was important for the senior pastor to continue to present it from his speaking platform, and then to encourage them assure that is the safe way of giving. Kindrid also provided us a very clean 3 step process of how the member from the congregation can get their giving set up through text. And once we played that video in our Sunday morning services, it will just be easy for everyone else to follow soon.

Kenny: Interesting.

Nadine: For now, it just continues to grow and even in our giving society, people are more comfortable now with carrying around plastic cards.

Kenny: Sure sure, now you said 20% new givers in your community which means it must be pretty easy in terms of instructions. It’s not some complicated manifested it to go through north to figure it out. On a given Sunday, during your offering time, literally, how do you message that text to give on the screens? Do you play that video every single week? Is it on envelopes? In the bulletin? What do you literally say to get people to understand the text to give?

Nadine: Okay. There are several different ways to people learn to different methods. What we’ve done we placed the video of how to give on our website. In our envelopes, our tithing envelopes is simple steps — a very simple step on the back of that envelope — so that they can give there as well. If they’re giving by checks, they can also know that they can give through text. In our tithe talk, we also communicate the number on the screen while we are doing our tithe talk. And we would just simply say, we have different ways for you to give. It doesn’t matter which way you choose. All is honored by God if given with a heart of thanksgiving. And we will put the number on the screen, and it has the 3 steps right underneath the number. But initially, when we were first going live with this initiative, we did play tt the video a few times and a few weeks in our services.

Kenny: But today, there is no need to put it on, and still, first time givers are actually lining up so, it’s not like it’s a complicated process it seems.

Nadine: No, not at all. Very simple

Kenny: Looking back, You said you are one of those that have hesitations at the very early conversation level. And, I think that’s what a lot of people who are watching today, listening into this conversation, they are on the same place. What was one of the biggest concerns that you have back then? Is it logistics? Is it finance? Is it the percentage? Is it the theology? What was the largest obstacle in your mind when you are thinking about the process for your church?

Nadine: The theology piece. I thought that there was a lack of — it wasn’t personal. So, I attached giving to — I don’t know. I guess because I was raised old-school on the church that you put it in the offering plate. So, I was caught up on the method and not the heart. Once I’ve reconciled that spiritually, that God cares about the heart and He does things differently and that can’t box it to say that this is the only way to be done,  once I dump over that hurdle, I realized I could have been a blockage of allowing people to participate in the act of worship — given as the act of worship and I didn’t want want to come to me that thing.

Kenny: One follow up question about the actual experience, has total giving gone up, down, stay the same? Has there been a sacrifice? Has giving gone down? What is it like today?

Nadine: Our giving has increased every year. Every year we see a steady climb. At the close of 2016, we had our meeting actually, yesterday. And I just thanked God for the increase that he has granted to our church body. We have steadily climbed in our giving in our congregation.

Kenny: There are obstacles people talk about is that people are unwilling to give large amounts via text. Have you seen that as the numbers coming or is it only small digit giving that is coming through text?

Nadine: No, People give their tithe. Some people tithe monthly. Some people tithe weekly. We actually have a cool story. There is someone that was watching we have a heart for the house  which is our visit day. Sermon series where we just go all in sacrificial giving. Someone was watching us online, I forgot what country they were in. They weren’t in the United States. And gave $50,000. They’re on online giving. We were shocked. This isn’t real. It’s gonna come back. It’s just a mistake. But, it was real. People are willing to give if the cause is there, if God is talking in their hearts. I don’t think it’s a matter of process. I think, again, it goes back to heart.

Kenny: I love hearing stories like that. Technology enabling ministry to reach worldwide and come together as one body. It’s a great story. So, thank you so much for your time. Let’s end this interview with a lightning round of questions, if you’re ready Nadine.

Nadine: Okay!

Kenny: A lot of leaders are watching or listening today because they want to learn. They want to up their game. What’s one good book, conference or other resource that you might have stumbled upon ora have been using recently that you can share with our audience today?

Nadine: Well, I actually subscribe to corporate business review. I’m a COO. And so, it’s just good for me to know what’s the latest technology, what’s going on out there in our world. I find that even outside the church people give towards charity and I want to see what compels the person who is not following God to give towards the charity or donations. And, so learning from different scopes not just in the church context but outside the church context has helped me further the initiative within our church.

Kenny: I love it. I’m actually subscribed to it, too, at HPR. Okay, what’s one big thing that you’re looking forward to in the year 2017 regarding your church community?

Nadine: I’m looking forward to more community presence. We do a lot of community outreach, I would like to see a scope further not just in the inner city. We’re strong in the inner city but also to those individuals that are in a homeless shelter. Those individuals that are not even struggling financially but they may be void of God and don’t know Him. And so I want us to see us partner more with different organizations to see how they can help our community and give hope especially in this times. There is just a lot of hopelessness.

Kenny: Great. The third question is where are you getting your inspiration and education around giving and donor development. Where do you look to at this point?

Nadine: I know this is going to sound cliche, but I’m sorry Kenny, it’s the honest truth. I looked to the Word of God. I see that giving is God’s idea. Everyone that He’s ever touched their heart. They became givers. And, so if I looked through the Scripture and see that not only did God compel people to give but He, Himself was a giver. And that helps me to know how to provoke generosity in others. I got to say this as well, Kenny. Sometimes, we are afraid to ask people to give, and it’s actually what people are waiting for. Because sometimes they see a big church or they see a thriving church, they say, they don’t need my financial help. So if we present the cause in front of them, if we present in the opportunity in front of them, people are ready to respond.

Kenny: That’s amazing. Thank you so much  for all your insights. If people today wants to get in touch with you, what’s the best method to do that?

Nadine: I have a Facebook account. It’s Nadine Raphael on Facebook. I also have my email nadine@clcftl.org

Kenny: Thank you so much for being on the show today with us.

Nadine: Thank you for having me

Kenny: And thanks to our audience who are listening into our conversation on digital giving in the church. Hope this episode has been useful to all of you. Do me a favor and like this episode and review us on the podcast iTunes. It really helps us reach more church leaders across the country on such important issue that affects the future of the church. Well that’s a wrap. I’m Kenny Jahng for Generosity Labs. ‘Til next time. Check out our website at generositylabs.org. And, remember when we give from the heart, that’s where the real giving starts.